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The Last Word

News/Business. (2011)

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Rupert Murdoch 15, Cialis 6, America 6, Eric Kantor 5, Us 5, At&t 4, Barack Obama 3, Maryland 3, Olympia 3, London 3, Schwab Mobile 3, United States 3, Scott 3, Motorola 2, Uva Uvb 2, Portland 2, Lawrence 2, Olay 2, Coppertone Sport 2, Maine 2,
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  MSNBC    The Last Word    News/Business.  (2011)  

    July 19, 2011
    8:00 - 9:00pm PDT  

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no. that's "the ed show." i'm ed schultz. listen to me on the leader of the gang of six is here with the latest plan to break the deadlock on the debt. house republicans are still using the rupert murdoch leadership method. don't blame me. . >> do you accept ultimately that you are responsible for the whole fiasco? >> no. >> i wd. >> the issue is not congressional in action. >> john boehner, eric kantor in charge when it's convenient. >> back here in the states, queue the blame game. >> no americans hold congress in high esteem. >> we as the new majority in the house. >> failing on the big things is
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something they choose to do. >> we implore them. murdoch is also note blame. >> insisting that he is not to blame. >> london calling. >> tried to pass the buck. >> he doesn't stack up. >> the 80-year-old appeared confused. >> here said yes, i'm in charge. >> someone tried to get i believe to rupert murdoch. >> a man with a shaving cream pie leaps past her husband and
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attempted to smash rupert murdoch in the face. >> that are looks like a spice. >> can you say it was glitter. >> as the deadline for raising the debt ceiling grows closer, house republicans chose to spend this day in debate and on a floor vote on a bill that the president has promised to veto if it somehow miraculously passed the senate, which it won't. republicans are not calling it the cut cap and balance bill because it drastically cuts spending and caps future spending and would guarantee future balanced guj et through a balanced amendment to the constitution. that would require a $2/3 majority. it was a debate over a bill that would never become law. you couldn't tell that from watching the action on the
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floor. >> the gentlemen from maryland loves to talk about the corporate loopholes. he loves to talk about corporate jet owners and preferences that exist in the code. the gentlemen from maryland knows all too well. he and i were in discussions for almost seven weeks. i said again and again that we would be happy to engage in a discussion of tax reform to get rid of those loopholes. i know it makes for good politics. to go throw the shiny ball out there, madam speaker. >> the gentlemen yield? >> i will not yield. to throw the shiny ball out there that republicans are wed to that policy to sustain these preferences >> i wish the gentlemen had yielded because it would be very clear that the republican position is they won't close a tax look hole that generates one penny per deficit reduction, not
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one penny. you can't close a corporate jet loophole if it's going to deficit reduction. >> the house vote is scheduled to take place within the hour. we are watching the house floor and will bring you that vote live when it happens. president obama returned to the press briefing room to publicly support the sudden emergence of yet another possible solution to the standoff. >> the good news is that today a group of senators, the gang of six, democrats and republicans, gang of 7 because one additional senator added on put forward a proposal that is broadly consistent with the approach that i urged. it said we have to be serious about reducing spending both in domestic spending and defense and we have to be serious about tackling health care spending and entitlements in a serious way.
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we have to add additional revenue. >> the gang of six senators led by kent conrad have been working on a solution for months and have been largely ignored by the white house for months. until today. when it became impossible for the president to continue to prevent that he could reach a so-called grand bargain in white house negotiations with house republican leaders. despite the president's praise for the gang of six plan, he ood mitts he hasn't actually read it >> i want to congratulate the gang of six for coming up with a plan that i think is balanced. we just received it so we haven't reviewed all the details of it. >> and the president said it will take days to actually negotiate the details of any solution. >> it would not match perfectly
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with the approaches that we have taken, but i think we are in the same playing field. my hope is that we can gather everybody over the next couple of days to choose a clear direction and get this issue resolved. there is still going to be a lot of difficult new yorks that have to take place in order for us to get something done. we have to have that fail safe that they're working on. >> the white house announced today that president obama will hold a town hall meeting this friday at the university of maryland college park. that is not the sort of thing that gets added to the president's schedule in the middle of a serious summit negotiation on a bipartisan deal. the president continues to use his outside game to strengthen his inside game. by going outside of the white house and the political process to speak directly to the american people about the republicans, the republican
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refusal to discuss reasonable tax revenue raising mechanisms brought the public now to the president's side in these negotiations. our new news "wall street journal" poll shows that a plurality says that congress must raise the deficit and a turn around from april when 46% said congress should not raise the debt ceiling. in that same poll, 55% said not raising the debt ceiling would be a real and serious problem. only 18% now believe otherwise. a cbs news poll found that 21% of people approve and 71% disapprove of how the congressional republicans are handling the debt ceiling negotiations. republicans are watching those polls too and those polls have strengthened the president's hand in his inside game in
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negotiations with republicans. but presidents who are confident that they will make a deal on legislation don't say things like this. in the event that we don't get an agreement at minimum we have a bad signal. that's the bare minimum. we continue to believe that we can achieve more. >> presidents on legislative crusades do not keep reminding you what they will accept at minimum. they don't keep underlining the bare minimum that has to be achieved as of tonight unless kent conrad can turn the gang of six into the gang of 60 in the senate. the bare minimum is as likely an out come as anything else. kent conrad is the chairman and a member and leader of the gang
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of six. what is in the latest version of your so-called gang of six plan? it's a comprehensive plan and fundamental tax reform. reform the entitlements and cut spending with nondefense and defense in significant ways. have about $4 trillion of deficit and debt reduction over 10 years. we have revenue through actually broadening the tax base and reducing rates to make america more competitive and significant spending reductions in both nondefense and defense. mandatory programs as well or reform of the entitlements including addressing the looming social security. not by using savings from social security for deficit reduction, but by using all of the savings from social security to secure its long-term viability and
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strength. >> i want to cover three points in this most contentious points. one is what you do with medicare and social security and the other, what you do on taxation. let's go through the things that democrats would worry about. what do you do in terms of adjustments to medicare? >> medicare and the other health care accounts in total, we saved $500 billion over 10 years. remember as you so well know, we will be spending more than $10 trillion over the next ten years. these are modest savings out of medicare and the other health care accounts. >> do you take the savings out of providers or do they come from beneficiaries also? >> we would say that they should come from providers, but ultimately the finance committee will come back with a proposal. it's their responsibility to do that. we have given them a number to
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hit. a savings number that they are responsible to secure. >> on the social security spees, what are the savings you achieve there? >> what we have called for is 75-year col vensy. again, ask the finance committee to come back with a nan would do that. none of the save frgs social security go for deficit reduction. it goes to extent the life of social security itself. >> and on the tax piece which is the part that it's hard to see how house republicans can accept any version of it. is there something you are doing with your plan that you think would somehow be acceptable to eric kantor? >> three things i would say. first of all, it is fundamental sweeping reform to make america more competitive to provide a lift to the economy and broaden the base and reduce rates including the corporate rate.
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it is paid for by eliminating other corporate loopholes and dodges that exist in the current system. second, cbo would score this as a $1.5 trillion tax cut compared to current law. third, we eliminate the minimum tax at a cost of $1.7 trillion paid for. i don't consider that a tax increase at all. it is reducing taxes that would fall increasingly on the middle class. in fact, tens of millions of people would be caught up in the alternative minimum tax in this provision is not passed. >> i want to read the reaction to what he knows about the gang of six plan. he said i am concerned with the gang of six revenue target and the plan fails to address the largest drivers of america's debt. it is unclear how the goals of tax and entitlement reforms would be enforced. i continue to caution that a tax
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increase is the wrong policy with so many americans out of work. he takes the form of tax increase so what is it that you think you can -- if you could talk to eric kantor about this, what is it you tell them that makes it different from what he heard in the white house? we are not increasing tax rates, but reducing tax rates. both on the individual and the corporate side. we are paying for those reductions. that's not unreasonable. we eliminate the alternative tax and the congressional budget office would score it as a 1.5 trillion dollar tax cut compared to current law. at some point we have to get past all of these lines in the sand by all sides. on the left they say don't touch entitlements.
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on the right they say don't touch revenue. guess what. we are borrowing 41 cents of every dollar we spend we are headed for a financial disaster. there is not a single objective expert on both sides that doesn't acknowledge we are headed for the fiscal clip. the question is, what is your plan? others who object to the plan that is the only bipartisan plan out there. three democrats. we met with 50 senator this is morning and many said i will support this plan. it has been a long time since we saw that in washington. >> harry reid raised a couple of realities that make it difficult. it will probably take a couple of walks a couple of revenue pieces especially the complicated
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medicare pieces hard to score. then there is the constitutional fact that any bill that includes the revenue and changes to taxation must originate in the house of representative. that is a constitutional requirement. there is no way around that. there is always a way around here. we had a house vehicle which we happen to have right now sitting over here that began and that does have a vehicle. you can put this on and send it back. number two, in terms of the scoring, the scoring in this would be much, much different than the scoring of the policy changes that were contained in the health care plan. these are numbers changes to raise revenue or cut spending. that's really quite easy to
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score. >> so senator, it would come in the form of a budget resolution? >> much like that. instructions the committees. you hit these numbers and if you don't, we created a special mechanism where 10 senators and five republicans and five republicans could lay down a measure. the budget resolution process simplifies it chairman, thank you very much for joining me tonight. >> yes, sir. >> coming up, why one of the most prom nebt conservative voices in america is utterly embarrassed by republicans in congress. it wasn't just the pie throwing incident. the questioning of rupert murdoch and his son james and former news of the world editor rebekah brooks was riveting, but what it did it reveal about how he does business? in the rewrite, why a main newspaper told a candidate to get out of the race and why that
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republican candidate thinks barack obama is not a christian. [ male announcer ] this...is the network -- a network of possibilities. in here, the planned combination of at&t and t-mobile would deliver our next generation mobile broadband experience to 55 million more americans, many in small towns and rural communities, giving them a new choice. we'll deliver better service, with thousands of new cell sites... for greater access to all the things you want, whenever you want them. it's the at&t network... and what's possible in here is almost impossible to say.
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>> rupert murdoch would like you to believe she sorry for hacking into your phone. next, how republicans may have scannedered their chances to get most of the things they always wanted. reagan adviser bruce bartlet is here. introducing the schwab mobile app. it's schwab at your fingertips wherever, whenever you want. one log in lets you monitor all of your balances and transfer between accounts, so your money can move as fast as you do. check out your portfolio, track the market with live updates. and execute trades anywhere and anytime the inspiration hits you. even deposit checks right from your phone. just take a picture, hit deposit and you're done. open an account today and put schwab mobile to work for you.
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achieve conservative greatness that republicans have been handed by president barack obama. there was a democratic president eager to move to the center. he floated certain ideas that would be normally unheard of from a democrat. according to widespread report, white house officials talked about raising the medicare eligibility age, cutting social security by changing the inflation index, freezing domestic discretionary spending and offering to preempt the end of the bush tax cuts in exchange for a brought tax reform process. why will republicans miss this opportunity? because of who brooks calls the "gods of the new dawn." they are the beltway bandits, interest groups adept at attracting rich lobbying contracts. for example, recovery norquist
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of americans for tax reform. brooks calls him the zelig of republican catastrophe. also the blow hards, presumably a reference to rush limbaugh. to keep audience share, they need to portray politics as a struggle and a series of compromises and steadily advance conservative aims and would muddy their story lines and be deaf to their ratings. brooks describes the show horses. he said political celebrities, sarah palin and michelle bachman. they have a climate in which purity is prized over practicality. finally the permanent campaigners. according to brooks, for many the purpose of being in congress is not to pass laws, but to get
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clear contrasts. it's not to take responsibility for the state of the country and make it better. it's to pass responsibility on to the other party and force them to take as many difficult votes as possible. joining me now is bruce bartlet, a senior policy analyst in the reagan white house and a columnist now for the fiscal times. thanks for joining me, bruce >> happy to be here. >> it is a difficult time to be a thoughtful republican. you and i chatted about this a bit. david brooks is not alone in his feelings about this, is he? >> he's not. the number of people who are willing to speak out publicly as david and i and david and a few others have, it's painfully small i'm afraid. >> we can report that the cut cap and balance bill has passed the republican-controlled house now. 234-190 against with five
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democrats voting for it. nine republicans voting against it. there is hope for nine republicans now. working in the house of representatives. they always have ever since he left office in your party pointed to ronald reagan as the great man, the man who was right about absolutely everything. i want to you listen to what he had to say about the debt ceiling . >> congress consistently brings the government to the edge of default before facing responsibility. this threatens the holders of government bonds and those who rely on social security and veterans benefits. interest rates would skyrocket. instability would occur in financial markets and the federal deficit would soar. the united states has a special responsibility to itself and the world to meet obligations. it mean zees a well-earned uch of the world.bility and om
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>> bruce, to my surprises, that lesson president reagan was trying to teach and whapd what happens if you wouldn't raise it. he said that in the context of having to sign a debt ceiling increase including pieces he did not like. he said i have to sign it because if i don't, look what happens. they jammed me on the time as they always do. the public seems to be learning they are turning around on the issue that we took a position in the past. who cares. they didn't like the sound of it. seems like the campaign is working. >> it looks that way from the polls. this is not surprising. it's similar to what you see in elections. the average person doesn't have the time to devote to thinking seriously about these issues until it gets close to election day. the closer we get to zero on august 2nd, it stands to reason that people are going to pay
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more attention and hopefully this will have impact. >> i don't know any harder working senator than kent conrad. i want to give him a form to tell us what he has been working on. i actually didn't hear anything that he said about the tax revenue pieces in his plan. are they any different conceptually from what the white house is saying. did you hear him say anything that could somehow appeal to eric kantor about the tax piece of what he is talking about? >> i think eric kantor takes orders from grover norquist and they will oppose any measure that raises $1 or one cent of net revenue. the most revealing thing was that the revenue base line is current law. keep in mind, current law means that all existing tax cuts expire on schedule.
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we have undercurrent law a net tax increase programmed into the base line. i think they are playing games with that to try to finesse the whole issue of whether this is a net tax increase or a net tax cut in order to try to make this thing work. >> calling us for the fiscal times. thank you very much for joining me this evening. >> thank you. >> coming up, rupert murdoch said she sorry and he claims to be humbled, but not responsible. [ female announcer ] think all bodywashes moisturize the same? challenge that thinking with olay. ♪ there's more than a jar of olay moisturizers in every bottle of olay bodywash to leave your skin feeling soft and smooth. with olay.
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somewhere in there, murdoch and his son find a spot to say i'm sorry and not much else. in the rewrite coming up next, a republican senate candidate in maine is so crazy, a portland newspaper told him to get out of the race while he told the world that barack obama is not a christian. that's in the rewrite next
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>> time for tonight's rewrite. olympia snow has a problem and his name is more conservative challenger. polls show that snow can be beaten in a republican primary by mr. more conservative challenger. she would be trounced by more
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conservative challenger 58-33. ork limpia snow is an obvious target era of tea party republicans. she is the least conservative in the senate. snow is the only republican to vote for the democrats reform bill in the senate finance committee. in the mark up, she was the only republican to support the democrat's position that the use of federal funds for abortion was effectively banned and did not need any further restrictions in the health care reform bill. the final bill that the president signed into law had more restrictive abortion language than those supported by senator snow because anti-choice democrats in the house forced that language into the legislation. senator snow did not vote for the health care reform bill on the senate floor after changes were made that she a posed, but
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she knew she was putting her career at risk by voting for it in the senate finance committee. she would be challenged in a republican primary. enter scott. the leading challenger against senator snow. although more challenger is beating snow in the polls, crazy conservative challenger is not. snow leads 43-18, indicating that maine republicans may be more conservative, but they are not crazy. nicole glass writing on the conservative and not crazy website told us that still suggest president obama's birth certificate is fake and accused the president of making peace with terrorists. and "returning to his muslim roots."
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he told ms. glass in an interview "the president, he said he is christian, but yet he exercises a lot of muslim faith too. me personally i'm a christian conservative. i don't hold malace to anyone whether they are muslim or jewish or catholic or anything else. he needs to come forward with his views a little bit clearer." when ms. glass asked if he thinks president obama is secretly a muslim, he said "i don't know if he is or isn't, but i don't believe he's a christian." well, i don't believe scott is a republican. i mean he is way too french of a name for a republican even though he tries to use the american pronunciation. republicans are still furious with the french for not joining
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our coalition to invade iraq looking for the weapons of mass destruction that wasn't there. remember freedom fries? surely if there were any of those in the republican party, they must have gotten rid of them when they changed the name to freedom fries. the trouble with what is really a republican and who isn't is that all we have to go on is what people say about themselves. olympia snow said she is a republican, but a lot of them think she is just a republican in name only. they think she is some crazy lefty like a socialist. there is nothing a republican can do about that. she keeps saying she's a republican. just like barack obama keeps saying he's a christian and the funny thing about being a christian is you can't tell who really is a christian. all we have to go on is what people say about themselves.
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the only thing unfair about him believing that president obama is not a christian is that he believes any other politician is a christian. if he wants to lead a movement that said we shouldn't believe what any politician said about religion because they all have a huge incentive to lie about just how religious they are and because we have separation of church and state in this country, then i would give him as much time as he needs to make that case on this program. but that's not scott. he's the kind of politician who said i'm a christian conservative. then says about another politician i don't believe he's a christian. a portland press herald editorial told him to get out of the race, saying "she insulting the voters and wasting their
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. it was i day of humble pie for rupert murdoch. first this. >> i would like to say this is the most humble day of my life. >> then there was this. a man identified as activist and comedian johnny marbles, charged him with a shaving cream pie. one of the many reasons murdoch is married to a woman 37 years younger is that she is the best body guard in his entourage. wendy murdoch in the pink jacket is a former employee of her husband's and a former volleyball player who demonstrated the quickest reflexes in the room when she sprung towards the assailant and
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spiked the pie back in his direction. just before the attack, the comedian tweeted it is a far better thing that i do now than ever before. the gist of the testimony is that i run a big company and i didn't know any of these bad things were happening. >> did you or anyone else investigate this at the time? >> no. >> you can explain why? >> i didn't know of it. this is not an excuse. maybe an explanation. this is less than 1% of our company. 53,000 people around the world. we are proud and great and ethical and distinguished people.
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professionals and i'm afraid watching and appointing people in my trust to run their divisions. >> can i add that my son was with the company for a few weeks. he had a lot on his plate. >> do you accept that ultimately you are responsible for the fiasco? >> no. >> you are not responsible? >> the people that i trusted to run it and maybe the people they trusted. >> joining me now from london, host of the martin ba sheer show, thank you very much for joining us. i have been looking at all the coverage of it and the highlights and seem to be missing the spot. parliament had the murdoches tar and feathered in that room today. how bad did it get for them? >> it was fairly intense, but i have to tell you this was the one occasion when being 80 years
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of age probably proved to be a positive and distinct advantage. he couldn't remember dates and times he couldn't remember payments he couldn't remember individual staff members. what we had was this all powerful media mogul reduced to a frail elderly man who couldn't remember a single thing. he could assert two things. one was he knew absolutely nothing about illegal phone hacking. he knew nothing about illegal payments to police. he knew nothing about paying private pictures to steal private medical records of politicians and members of the public. he knew nothing about that. he was adamant. second, he was clear that he is not for resigning. he believes he should stay at the helm of this company and rebuild it and in his words, reestablish its moral underpinnings. i have to say that one of the things that came across today was something of a shock for british society.
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here we had institutions, the policing, politicians, the press. all corral and controlled by this media mogul. it was disturbing and dramatic even without the humble pie that you saw and described so expertly now. >> martin, despite his testimony about hearing no evil and seeing no evil, creating that kind of web of control would require an overview of all of the interlocking parts and that overview was impossible to have sitting at any one individual murdoch property. you have to have a view of all of the properties that were interacting this way. >> you would. one of the interesting things and i think you of all people have picked this up. murdoch's power and control was particular and specific. he talked, for example, about the fact that last year when
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david cameron built a government in may of 2010, he was one of the first visitors to number 10 downing street. guess what. he entered through the backdoor. i remember reading the diaries. he was the press spokesman for tony blair and guess what he said in his diaries. we ushered in rupert murdoch through the backdoor at number 10. this man had full and free access to the most senior individuals elected in the united kingdom. he had close relationships with the editors of his newspapers. for example, piers morgan who was the editor for 18 months in his recollection writes that rupert murdoch spoke to him at least once a week for 18 months. we have a vast contrast between a man sitting before a house of commons committee, incapable of remembering anything, and idea
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individuals who interacted with him remember everything is it really possible that rupert murdoch knew nothing? absolutely? rupert murdoch knew nothing, absolutely zero? and remember, he had newspapers under his control that were delivering the most spectacular stories, stories about members of the royal family asking 500,000 pounds to allow people access to prince andrew. he -- that's the sort of story that his newspaper was delivering. members of parliament, for example, caught in bed with various women. again, stories that his newspapers were delivering. that is the kind of detail that rupert murdoch provided and yet was supposed to believe after today, he knows nothing and can't remember anything of the criminality. >> martin, your command of the story and perspective on it is invaluable to us. you can see martin bashir on msnbc, martin, thank you very much for joining me tonight. >> it's a great pleasure, lawrence, and thank you for
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having me. >> coming up, what's next in the investigation of rupert murdoch's empire and what could come back to haunt him? [ male announcer ] this...is the network -- a network of possibilities. in here, the planned combination of at&t and t-mobile would deliver our next generation mobile broadband experience to 55 million more americans, many in small towns and rural communities, giving them a new choice. we'll deliver better service, with thousands of new cell sites... for greater access to all the things you want, whenever you want them. it's the at&t network... and what's possible in here is almost impossible to say. didn't taste so vegetably? well, v8 v-fusion juice gives you a full serving of vegetables, plus a full serving of fruit. but it just tastes like fruit. and try our deliciously refreshing v8 v-fusion + tea. with listerine® whitening plus restoring rinse.
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though he's in the thick of the british media scandal, rupert murdoch is an american citizen and his company, news corp., is an american company. a murdoch competitor that "news of the world" journalists offered a former new york police officer a bribe in exchange for the private phone records of 9/11 victims with the intent of hacking into those victim's
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voice mails. appearing before the british parliamentary committee today, the murdochs left open the possibility that those claims might be true. >> you're absolutely confident no employee or contractor of news corp. or its properties hacked the phones of 9/11 victims or their families? >> we have no evidence of that at all. >> any credible allegations? >> no, i was just going to say -- sorry, i was just going to say those are incredibly serious allegations and they've come to light fairly recently. we do not know the voracity of the allegations and are trying to understand precisely what they are. i'm well aware of the allegations and will eagerly cooperate with any investigation or try to find out what went on at that time. >> joining me now, nbc news national investigative
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correspondent, michael isikoff. thank you for joining me tonight, michael. >> good to be with you. >> in the scandal that involves newspaper reporters coluting with reporters, is there a model the fbi is using here they may begin looking at newspaper operatives here in the united states for murdoch with american police officials, possibly in new york city, as these allegations suggest, and if they are, the most corrupt police officer at the time was the police commissioner, bernie kerik, as in london, we may end up seeing a story that goes all the way to the top to the police department here as it did in britain. >> right, it's an interesting theory, lawrence, but at this point there's no evidence to support that. there is this allegation from the daily mirror, which it's worth pointing out is a rival paper to murdoch, there were no
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names in it. it's very hard to assess the credibility of it. this is clearly the most serious allegation facing news corp. were any of this proven to be true, it would have a devastating blow on news corp. and could ultimately lead to the challenge of the broadcast licenses, which would be the worst blow possible to the company, but at this point we have to be cautious and say look, we haven't seen a lot to support that particular allegation. >> and michael, the broadcast licenses are important because really the newspaper business, murdoch says accurately, it's a tiny piece of his action, just a few percent of what that company is up to, which makes you wonder why did he ever want to stay in that business for any reason other than being a political influence and having that kind of moment that we just heard about of walking in the back door of 10 downing street.
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>> look, he is a newspaper guy. he's an old-fashioned newspaper baron, right out of william randall hurst days. he began in australia, moved to britain, bought up papers in the united states. i think it's in his blood to be a newspaper tycoon, and he likes to use the influence, he also likes the game of newspapering. and one of the curious things about his testimony today is when he suggested at one point he only called or spoke to the editor of the "news of the world" maybe once a month. look, there are multiple accounts of how he was very in the weeds on the running of the british newspapers. media people interviewed him remember him calling editors constantly, what do you got, what's going on, so it's kind of hard to square what he said today with the multiple accounts of how he's operated this business over the years.
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>> and going back to that -- that scale of his company, when you're running a big movie studio, which he has and big television networks, which he has both in cable and in broadcast, holding on to that little newspaper business of his in relative terms could only mean he was very, very interested in what was going on in those newspaper businesses he now claims to have been ignoring basically. >> you're right, he absolutely enjoyed the political and relished the political influence it gave him. the points martin made about the back door entry he had to 10 downing to david cameron and tony blair. there are political figures, mostly in the republican party, but not exclusively, that have bowed to rupert murdoch, that have cultivated him. in fact, hillary clinton, when she was running for the senate did, and so this is a guy who's